Ellis Berns, Oral History

Recorded: May 4, 2010
Interviewed and transcribed by Craig S. Simpson

Note: This transcript includes geo-references to locations that are discussed in the oral history. Geographical names linked in the transcript will open in a new window or tab that takes you to that location information and map in the Mapping May 4 project. To request a transcript without geo-reference links included, please contact Kent State University Special Collections & Archives.

[Interviewer]: Good afternoon. My name is Craig Simpson, and the date is May 4, 2010. We're conducting an interview today for the Kent State Shootings Oral History Project, here on actually the 40th Commemoration of the shootings.

[Ellis Berns]: Yep.

[Interviewer]: Could you please state your name?

[Ellis Berns]: My name's Ellis Berns. Former student here. Was at Kent from 1967 to 1971. I was a student, had received a bachelor's of arts or science in social work. So I was in social work, sociology and psychology here. I graduated in four years, so that was good. But the last year obviously was a difficult and trying year after the shootings in '70.

[Interviewer]: Sure, sure.

[Ellis Berns]: So, a little tough.

[Interviewer]: Yeah. Where were you born?

[Ellis Berns]: I was born actually in Akron. In 1949. May 7, 1949. In fact, I'll be having a birthday here shortly.

[Interviewer]: Oh, yeah.

[Ellis Berns]: And today, on May 4th every year, it's a little tough. My mother's birthday is on May 4, and this year, 2010, today turned 90.

[Interviewer]: Oh, wow.

[Ellis Berns]: So on top of that, having to the commemoration of Kent State's always a little bit difficult. It's the happy/sad kind of thing: you're joyful that your mom made it to 90, and sad about the people who died and were injured. Particularly Sandra Scheuer, whom I was with.

[Interviewer]: What made you decide to come to Kent State?

[Ellis Berns]: It was a combination of things, I think. It was far enough away from home to live away from home. Economically, it seemed to work. My dad had some apartments here, so I was able to work and do some work there. Had a curriculum that I seemed to like. And it was a school where I got into. I was like one of these average kind of students, and it seemed to work pretty well for me.

And the first kind of few years at Kent were pretty good for me. Pretty productive, pretty interesting. I had some pretty positive experiences. I lived in the dorms for the first year, year-and-a-half. Actually lived, where is it over? I think originally, some of these names escape me now, but Johnson Hall originally. And I actually started in the summer, I think, of 1967. So I started in the summer of '67, and then eventually ended up, at that time, they were single-story residential dorms where the football team was living. So it was kind of interesting to live -- and I had some roommates -- live with the football team. Nice Jewish boy like me living with the football team was a little odd. And probably my first exposure living with several African-Americans, which was really enlightening and a very positive experience for me. So it really offered me a lot in terms of just new experiences and exposure. At that time had a few good professors, which was fun and was pretty good.

[Interviewer]: Do you recall -- you had mentioned living with or near African-Americans -- do you recall the BUS [Black United Students] walkout in 1968?

[Ellis Berns]: Not too much happened, at least what I recall, in terms of the BUS walkout in '68. I mean, '67, '68, I was still a freshman, sophomore, and just getting my legs to understand this.

And then I was also starting to get involved in some of the protest movements. I was more of an observer, but I was kind of interested. I kind of wanted to be involved. I had some friends that were involved with SDS, and a lot of times -- which is kind of how I got involved with May 4th, I think, and that whole weekend -- was that I would go occasionally to some of the SDS meetings, just more on the periphery than anything else. I was kind of political but not that political. I was not a radical by any means. I was not interested in that. There were times back in the 60s -- in the late-60s -- where I remember going, I can't remember which groups we went with, but we went to Washington several times. There were several protests against the war in Vietnam; I was totally opposed to the war in Vietnam. In '68, '69, had gone to Washington to protest what was going on. In that respect, I was pretty active and really believed in the need for showing power in terms of numbers of people. Was a strong pacifist, peaceful, was not interested in violence of any way, shape or form. Was not the kind of person that was doing things, throwing stones, or any of that kind of thing. I was just very passive in that respect. I felt just by being there was representing my belief, and I felt that the more people did that, the more influence it would have over policy that the federal government was making related to the war in Vietnam.

I felt that the war in Vietnam was pretty unjust, that people were dying on both sides, and there was really no cause for that. Did some work in terms of understanding a little bit more about what was going on. Didn't quite believe in the old "domino theory" that was kind of being proposed at the time. So I felt pretty strongly that we should get out of Vietnam. And there was also some things this weekend you forget about. You forgot about how depressing or oppressive it was having the draft hang over all our heads. As much as you wanted to explore and do lots of different things, you knew that you had to maintain your student deferment, your 2-S deferment, and so on. We all had the draft looming over us, and I in particular, I think it was in '69 or so that they instituted the lottery program. Given that my birthday is May 7th, my number was 32, so I knew I was going to have to stay in school to maintain that deferment. So that was just one of the realities I had to deal with. I didn't want to go serve. So that's kind of one of the things that I was involved with at the time. I was active, but not in a way that people knew who I was. I was probably more an observer than anything else.

[Interviewer]: What do you remember about the events of that Spring in 1970? You can start wherever you like. Some people start the weekend before, or -- were you here for the Friday night?

[Ellis Berns]: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I could take you through the weekend, is kind of like clear. But then the, that's interesting, you point out what happened the weekend before, the May 4th weekend. And I'm trying to think what all -- I don't remember. I mean I really -- it's all kind of a blur. And then I just remember there was this stuff going on. Then we heard about Cambodia, and that was pretty disheartening. But if you asked me specifics about what happened -- and I know you're not, but if you asked me specifics, "Well, what happened the weekend before?" or that week or weeks before May 4th -- you know, that's the irony, that Kent was still pretty quiet.

I had friends who used to go to Madison, Wisconsin. I had a friend at UW; I used to go up there on weekends. There there were people protesting, it was very active. And compared to University of Wisconsin, Kent seemed like just small potatoes. It really wasn't the kind of activity -- although you knew there was a bit of an undercurrent that was going on. But nothing like how it crescendoed out of control, but not expecting anything severe or anything that eventually happened on the May 4th weekend.

But I was here. Started out on Friday night, I was down, I think it on Water Street. And I remember that it was later in the evening, and my times are probably a little inaccurate, but I was just out there having a beer, and I remember -- and my role seemed to be more of an observer. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I remember on that Friday night I came out in the streets, and it was almost a day like today, which is clear. It was warm. Yesterday, I was sitting out by Ray's, which I had never been to before. Sitting out in the window of Ray's in Kent. But it was almost a simialr kind of evening: it was warm, it was humid, people where you could just kind of feel the tension in the air, but I wasn't sure what it is.

And then I remember I started to hear this crashing, and people starting to kind of run through the streets, and they were protesting. To this day, I'm not sure absolutely exactly what had happened to prompt the protests that caused the actions in the downtown, where the windows were breaking. But I just remember observing it, seeing people run in the streets, seeing people break windows. In my mind, it was like, Why are they doing this? What purpose does it serve?

So, I remember finally leaving. And I had walked through, seen some of the damage that'd been done. Saw the police come. Part of the group that just got dispersed. And I just left. I went home. And at the time I was living over on Depeyster Street. And I remember going home and just kind of shaking my head.

I remember the next day, on Saturday, that things started to crescendo in the sense that they really were -- again, it was another beautiful day, but that's when more protests started. And I remember later in the evening there were groups trying to get together and protest because at that time the police, and I think by that time the National Guard had been called, because they felt, the town seemed to feel that the place was out of control. So I remember going to some of the residency halls because we weren't supposed to be gathering. I remember running from residence hall to residence hall and it was very, very eerie, because it was almost a little bit like a game. It was trying to avoid being in the National Guard, trying to protest the war, and that was also -- oh, and let me take it back. That was also the night, and I was also there, I observed -- going back -- the ROTC building when that got burned. Now it comes back. Excuse me.

[Interviewer]: That's okay.

[Ellis Berns]: Yeah. And so I remember the ROTC being burned, and standing there in just complete awe. It was just remarkable. I had never seen a building burn, with the heat and the fervor and the intensity. These old ROTC buildings were just completely wooden structures, and they just went up in flames. And this was in response, protesters in response to what was happening with the war. Now it's coming back to me. That was what was going on. And what I was saying earlier was kind of after this whole ROTC building, and that's when things really started to get out of control. I remember observing this, because you almost could not move. Your feet were planted when you see the power of a building burning with such intensity. You were just amazed at how fire can just destroy things.

I remember the fire department coming and unrolling the hoses and actually trying to put the fire out. And what really pissed me off was my peers, my [fellow] students, my [fellow] people protesting were actually cutting the fire hose, which made absolutely no sense to me. I just couldn't believe that that was happening, and I was a little bit disgusted about the whole thing. it was at that point, I think, that then the National Guard -- because there shortly after, the police and the National Guard, I don't remember all, who started to clear out and move people. Because, truly, if there was anybody in danger throughout this whole weekend, in my opinion, it might have been the firefighters who was trying to put this fire out. That's the kind of thing that was really disturbing to me. The firemen were there. I was probably a little bit idealistic at the time. These guys didn't have anything to do with [anything] but put the fire out. I wasn't throwing rocks. Why are people throwing rocks? Why are they cutting the hoses? I understand the ROTC building what it represents. But it was just something that made no sense to me.

So at that point, that's when I started remembering now about running, leaving the area, didn't want to get caught by police because they were gonna arrest anybody they could. Because this was a pretty serious offense. I remember finally getting out and getting into a dormitory and eventually was able to evacuate and get back to my house on that Saturday night. But it's all just like, it was all very eerie. I'm trying to think and bring back memories of what was going on. I have to just think about that. But that's what was going on. So I got back to my house on Saturday night.

Then I remember that Sunday I was heading back to Akron, which was where my parents lived. My mom still lives there in Akron. My parents were really upset with me. They actually brought -- my father was involved with The Unversity of Akron, and he had a professor from the University come into the house to talk to me about protesting. Believe it or not. I was just adamant. And they really wanted to talk me out of going back to Kent. This was late Sunday afternoon, early Sunday evening.

[Interviewer]: Did they know where you had been the two previous nights?

[Ellis Berns]: Yeah, I told them. I said people were protesting the war. My parents were fairly liberal to a point, but this was a little bit over the top for them. They were trying to talk me, basically telling me that they would rather that I stay home and not go back to Kent until all this blew over. At that point, I remember, I felt really -- and by that time, on Sunday, the city was under martial law. It was a very eerie feeling. We actually had a curfew. I believe the curfew was either five o'clock or seven o'clock or eight o'clock at night. But I was in Akron talking to my parents, talking to this professor who was basically trying to talk me out of going back. Explaining it's important to protest, but there were times and places to protest. One shouldn't risk one's life for this. I, by that time, for some reason, even though there were certain things that just didn't make sense to me -- why the fire hoses were being cut, what happened on Water Street the night before -- I felt by that time the National Guard taking control, I really believed the National Guard should not take over. I really believed in freedom of speech and that there was no reason for the National Guard. So my protest became more and more adamant towards getting the National Guard off of the University [campus] more than anything, because I felt passionate about, as students, that we had the right to protest. Not the University. These were like hallowed grounds. This is where freedom of speech, where it means something. It's an experiment for all of us. It's an experiment in terms of that ability to express ourselves, the ability to learn, the ability to express ourselves. That's how strongly and passionately I felt about the National Guard and why they should be on the campus. They shouldn't be, because this is a higher institution of learning.

I remember just before I left Akron, somehow I knew, and I even said to my parents, "I'm gonna lay my life down on this." Because I believed. I don't know, I was still a kid. I was what, twenty years -- no, I was nineteen years old. I thought about this the other day. And I remember that that's how strongly I felt. That I was really coming back with a feeling in my heart and a feeling in my stomach that I was really there to protest, and that I knew there was going to be some action on Monday, and I knew it was in defiance of what the National Guard and what the University wanted. But I felt so strongly about this.

On Sunday, I drove back from Akron to Kent. I mentioned earlier we were under martial law, and I remember my dad owned some apartments where I parked, over off what were called the Kent Stater [apartments], and I parked there and then lived over on Depeyster Street. It was still daylight. The only cars -- it was eerie -- the only cars that I remember on the road were the Army National Guard vehicles. The curfew had already taken place. I had come in like seven or eight o'clock at night. It was still slightly light. I remember going from where I parked my car over to my house on Depeyster Street. And it was just weird. Here we are in the United States, here we are in America, and I don't have the freedom of movement. It was was the first time that I ever realized -- and probably the only time -- what it means to be under martial law. And what that really means. That's pretty significant, if you will, for a kid nineteen years old. You know, what did we do? So far nothing had happened. They cut some fire hoses. They burnt down the ROTC building -- I know that's pretty serious. At the same time, is it serious enough that our freedom of speech should be restricted?

So I kind of -- how do you say it? Coming in on Sunday night, it was kind of like dancing through the houses. It's like when we were kids, it's kind of like hide-and-seek. I'd see the Guard go by, and then I'd move from house to house, and finally make it back to my house. That was it.

Then on Monday morning, I got up. Don't remember exactly what I'd done, because it started out as a typical day, knowing I was going up to the University and I was going to protest. I'd seen flyers out, and rumors on the street had been that there was going to be a protest. There had been an order given -- a couple of days prior to, or on Sunday -- that there shall not be any gathering of more than three or five people, and we said bullshit to that. That's how strongly I felt about it.

I was gonna go up. I was walking from my house on Depeyster up, um, was it, Water Street, I guess? Is it Water Street? [pause] Or Summit? Is it -- Summit. Sorry. That's where Sandy [Scheuer] lives. Yeah. So I remember coming around the corner on Summit Street, and I knew Sandy -- how did I know Sandy? I think I was once pledging a fraternity, A E PI [sp?], which was a Jewish fraternity. I remember pledging, and it must have been either the fraternity or friends of the fraternity that I actually met Sandy. I'm not absolutely certain how I had met her, which I'm actually a little disappointed with myself. I can't remember. But somehow we had met before.

And I remember, as I'm coming -- this was Monday, about 11:30 or so -- I was coming around the corner, coming from my house on Depesyter, going up Summit, and she lived in this rather large house, which I think is now gone. I think it's now a dental office or something, or maybe the one right next to it. But seeing her sitting out, and it was one of those wraparound outdoor porches, and seeing her kind of sitting outside. I remember seeing her, saying hello, and telling her I was going up to protest. And she indicated to me that she was gonna be going on up to class and so on. I just talked briefly, had a brief interaction with her. We knew each other. We had a nice connection, it wasn't anything else. We just had a nice connection. She said she was going to go to class, if I recall correctly, and I said I'm going up to protest. And I told her how I felt about it.

So I ended up heading up to the University. You could almost feel the tension as you got closer and closer to the University. I'm not one to defy authority. I tend to be one that follows, and that's what the irony of this whole thing. I tend to be one, as I mentioned, on the periphery. Authority was a big deal to me and it wasn't something that I often would go against or defy. But this time I was going to defy authority, so for me it was a huge deal. Also the fact that I had this big argument; I ran out of the house that Sunday night when I talked to my parents. I left and I just said, "That's it, I'm going." So they were not happy. Even a couple days ago, this time, before my mother turned ninety, she remembers vividly how they felt about the fact that I was leaving, and how sad they were that I was leaving. They really did not want me to come back up to Kent. But I was insistent.

That Monday I'm walking up to the University, finally get up towards, kind of get through the lines you need to get through. There weren't any lines, but all over the place there were signs and indications that no more than three or five people can gather. And then I remember getting to the Liberty Bell. I think that's the right term.

[Interviewer]: The Victory Bell?

[Ellis Berns]: Victory Bell. I got to the Victory Bell, and there were a bunch of people there. We were there to make a stand, and I was there to make a stand. So what happened was I was just hanging around, and again I felt strongly about why I was there. I kind of felt like I had a purpose. I really wanted [the National Guard] to be off. And then the whole thing kind of started. That's when they came out with the bullhorns and the jeep and they said, "You will disperse. You're in violation of some state emergency ordinance or emergency martial law, and if you don't disperse within a period of time, people are going to be arrested," or whatever they said. We were all just like, no, we're not moving, this is just what we're gonna do.

Then you started to see the advance of all the Guardsmen. They started to advance. Here we are, it was Blanket Hill, and we were standing there. It's kind of like, these guys got guns, and they're coming toward us. And you don't know, you don't think about what's going to happen, you don't know exactly what's going to happen. But as they moved towards us and they got closer and closer, I believe it was then that they started firing tear gas. So we all started running away from the tear gas, because I remember I had kleenex and so on, and I remember rubbing my eyes and all the appropriate things you were supposed to do at that time to try and minimize the amount of damage that the tear gas did.

It was at that point, as we were kind of being dispersed, I remember running into Sandy. I just forgot some things and now I've been reminded of it. But I actually ran into Sandy the first time, and I realized that she was not there to protest. She was back basically on her way to class. That's was where she was headed, but she was crying and teared up, and I remember tearing off some of my Kleenex that I had, trying to give it to her to protect her eyes and stuff. And she appreciated it.

So she kind of left, or we kind of parted ways. I think it was the National Guard was coming up over the hill and eventually ended up over on the old practice field. People were dispersing, running around. It was thick with tear gas. I was kind of at the top where Taylor Hall was, looking down. The great picture where it shows the students looking down. The National Guard was basically, if there was a time for them that they were in danger it was probably that time, because they truly were surrounded. Because they had a fence on one side and there were students on the other two or three sides around them. I remember they kind of stopped, almost like they were resting. They kind of stopped, because they didn't know what the next action would be.

It was at that point then that they started to lob some tear gas, and I remember seeing some of the protesters -- some of my colleagues, if you will -- some of the protesters starting to throw the tear gas back. And then another National Guard[sman] picked up some tear gas canister, threw it back. Then another person threw it back. And at that point they started to march back up the hill, up towards the Pagoda.

It was kind of about that time that I ran back into Sandy. I said, "You know, this is getting to feel too much like a game." I just didn't feel comfortable. I was supposed to be meeting a girlfriend over at the old Student Union. And [Sandy] was saying, "Well, I've got a class." It was at Music and Speech Building, I don't know where that is. I thought she going to class over at the Education Building but have since been corrected, it was Music and Speech. But it doesn't really matter. What matters is that we were both leaving, because I felt like it was a game, she didn't feel like she should, she was just completely out of her element. She was just basically like I was earlier, which was just observing. I think she had friends around. I know she knew some of the people, I'm sure she knew some of the people that were involved with this, but not in a negative way. She was just a sweet, incredible person. And I remember she was just there.

So we were both leaving, because I felt like it was getting too much like a game, I was supposed to meet my girlfriend by the old Student Union, so we were going kind of circle back, circle away from the National Guard, back on the far side of the campus. I remember that we started as the National Guard was advancing up towards the Pagoda and eventually up to the top of the hill, right up to the Pagoda. Didn't really see that. We were just starting to walk away. She was next to me, and I said, "Let's go. I'm tired of this. Let's just get out of here. I've got to see my girlfriend. You've got to get to class." And so we were actually heading away. Most of the pictures, I think, if there are any pictures, which there are a few, we were actually heading away from the National Guard. In fact, I think we were the furthest of any of the people that were shot. We were the furthest away. In fact, I was looking at it out at the parking lot before I came up [today], and I believe we were the furthest away.

We were walking away, and as we were walking away -- and she had a red shirt on, and I had a green fatigue jacket on. And my hair, I looked pretty radical at the time. In fact, I still today have my Kent State I.D. from that time [laughs]. Which is kind of interesting. Let me know if I'm talking too --

[Interviewer]: No, we're great. I was just checking the batteries. We're great.

[Ellis Berns]: Okay. No problem. So I remember we were walking away. She had this leather jacket and she had a red shirt on, and then I had this green fatigue jacket and I had long curly hair and a beard and I looked like hell. But that's what you looked like during that period of time. Now I understand why my parents were worried. So we were walking away, and you just didn't feel right. You just felt like there was something in the air. But I always believed that if people have guns they are going to use them. People don't have guns just to have guns. The concept of rubber bullets -- no. That's why I was a little bit nervous about it, and that's why I thought, you know, this is getting to be too much of a game and somebody's going to get hurt and let's go. And that's what I had said to her: "Let's just go."

So we were walking away and we were over in the parking lot, and that's when we heard the -- and I'll say the firing, but we didn't know what it was. I can say I didn't know what it was. All I knew was, instinctually, what I knew was this wasn't right. In a split second, I knew that I was going to grab her and we were going to go to some type of cover. And that's all I knew. I don't know why. Never fired a gun, never fired once. But I heard a volley of shots that I don't think I'll ever forget. It just seemed to last forever. We both hit the ground. I had my arm around her, my left arm around her. We both were kind of diving, if you will, towards cover. Not sure why, other than we just knew we didn't want to be standing. We dove for cover, and I remember waiting until I felt it was safe to get up. Until we felt like the shooting was over. You didn't know it was shooting. It felt like it was shooting. You knew it was some kind of shooting. So you waited, and I couldn't even begin to tell you how long we waited for. But we waited. Finally, you can kind of hear things in the background, kind of indicating that you're -- you hear people screaming, and then you realize, okay.

I remember I had my arm around her, and she was laying on her stomach face down. I remember calling out to her, "Sandy, it's over. Let's go, let's go." I remember calling out to her, and there was no response. And then I looked. And then I realized that I believe she had been, she was hit, I think it was the left side or the right side? I think it was the right side. I could be a little off on this. [pause] It had to be the right side. The right side, because the bullet had not just grazed her but had severed a carotid artery. So there was a lot of blood. I was in a state of like, I don't know what to do. I remember trying to administer first aid. I remember trying to reach in, to try to stop the bleeding into her neck, because you could just see where the bullet had penetrated her carotid artery. I think it was her carotid artery, I'm not a doctor. But there was just blood all over. And she was totally unconscious.

I remember calling out for help, calling an ambulance, which seemed like an eternity. People came over to try to help out. We moved her. We tried to revive her. We tried some CPR. We just wanted to stop the bleeding. I remember trying to lift her feet so we could keep blood going to her brain. But it seemed totally unsuccessful. And then finally an ambulance arrived. I remember asking somebody in the ambulance, "I want to go with her." And they said, "No, absolutely not."

So that was it. There are some accounts, I believe I have heard that she actually had a heartbeat to the hospital, but I can't attest to that at all. In my mind, she had died right there. Because to the best of my knowledge, she had never gained consciousness again. We did everything we could, but it was just a complete, it was just a really, you just couldn't believe it.

I remember I had this green fatigue jacket on, and on my arm there were bloodstains and then some tissue, if you will -- not to be morbid -- but there was some tissue on my arm from her neck, from where it had been severed. I didn't know what to do. I remember after she left, after things -- I don't know if you want to say "calmed down" -- but after things, I didn't know what to do. So I remember I said, "I got to go back and visit with my girlfriend, I don't know what to do." I walked around the campus, and I was almost in a state of shock. Then I remember I came back around the old Student Union, and there's a roadway between the old Student Union and the steam plant? Which the old Student Union is now called the -- it's where the event was yesterday.

[Interviewer]: Oscar Ritchie Hall?

[Ellis Berns]: Yeah, thank you. I couldn't remember what it's now called, which is the old Student Union. I remember there was this roadway, and it was a roadway into campus, into the whole area where the Bell was and Blanket Hill, and it was all completely blocked off. The logic was to go back where we started from and just kind of regroup. I remember the Guard was not letting anybody in, and they were pointing guns. I remember I ripped my jacket off, this green fatigue jacket with Sandra's blood, and I threw it at them. And I told him to go fuck himself. I was just livid. I didn't know what to do. I could have been killed right there, if you think about it. It was just well beyond what had -- I had no clue. I was completely shocked and didn't know.

I finally left. I was able to connect up with my girlfriend at the time. She actually was [unintelligible] county. She actually had lived here in Kent, down in Twin Lakes. And I remember we got in her car and we went back to her place, because everything was completely locked down. There was nothing you could do, no place to go. I couldn't get to my car. Somehow, I can't remember, I honestly can't remember how we got to her car. Maybe because she worked at the Student Union. But we ended up going back to her house. Trying to decompress from all this.

The irony -- and this is kind of the postscript to this whole thing -- is I was at her house, and her dad was a very prominent banker here in Kent. I had been at her house for a while, and I called my parents, somehow was able to let them know that I was okay. Wasn't sure what I was going to do. I remember it was a few hours later, and I was just there at her house decompressing. And I remember that her dad actually walked in, and he looked like, his collar's all disheveled. He was the president of the bank, it was Citibank at the time. He apparently had gotten into a fight, because after this whole thing had happened on May 4th, the whole town went crazy. I remember protesters walked down the street and they started ripping American flags down. Well, David -- that's his name -- David apparently got into a fight with one of the protesters and got thrown into jail, because a protester tore the American flag down in front of the bank. He was conservative, but a very respectable gentleman. I really mean that. He was a true gentleman. And he got into a fight with a protester and got thrown in jail!

Fortunately, they -- I have to do some conjecture here -- but I think they realized who he was and released him. I don't know what the terms were. The only reason I say this, it was kind of the irony. I'm over at my friend's house, my girlfriend's house, and then her father shows up. Here I am, having just been in the war at home, and he had just gotten taken out of jail for fighting the protesters. Like I say, he was a gentleman. We seemed to deal with it okay. But I think we were both in shock and in awe of what was going on, and not really had ever had an opportunity to talk about what happened and why and what his perspective was or anything.

It was at that point I finally left Kent. I never went back to Akron to visit my parents. I ended up, ironically, getting in my car and driving up to Madison, Wisconsin, which was like, you know, you go from one hotbed to the other. But my friend who I went to visit, he lived kind of in a residential neighborhood. He had rented a house a while ago during that time, and so I was able to go there kind of as a way to just decompress. I was mad at my parents. I was really mad at them. And this was a way for me to just get away. So I was gone for several days, a week or so, and then I finally came back and spent time with my parents.

After that, there was the summer. School had closed. I took off, believe it or not, with a friend of mine, and we had to buy a Volkswagen van. We took off across the country. I don't know where I got the money, but we ended up going cross country. I remember having a decal that said "Kent State," and having a peace sign in the middle of it and stuff. We drove cross country and spent two months just traveling and seeing America and seeing how people reacted and seeing what was going on, and it was quite the experience. It was a way to heal for me.

I came back to Kent in the Fall. I got pissed at the University. I spent a lot of time working, trying to participate in programs with the locals. There was a lot of healing and opportunities for meeting with the locals: What had happened, how can we build stronger relationships with the community. Didn't seem so satisfying. I remember grades were Pass/Fail the whole year, and most of the focus of all the classes was not on learning. It was a tough year for the University. I probably condemned the University a little bit, understanding they were at a complete loss as to what to do. How do you reconvene classes after four people killed and nine wounded? How do you reconvene classes? What do you do?

It was at that point, finally, in May of '71, I did graduate on time, which is what I wanted to do. Didn't make a big deal out of it. Was glad to be out of here, and was kind of angry at the University. Because my education, over the years I realized, it was not great. I had a different kind of education, if you will, than the kind of education that I thought I would be getting at Kent.

So that was pretty much it. I finally graduated and moved to Madison, and lived there and went on from there. My life, I guess, in conclusion, I guess, it was just my life. What has changed? I don't know. Sandra, whom I was with, will always be a memory, and I will always mourn her loss. And will always try to keep that memory alive. Because, I realized, you're the last person to have seen her alive.

I have two children, two daughters, and certainly have shared with them most if not all this story and what had happened. They were kind of curious about it. They're curious about the 60s, because it was such an interesting time.

[Interviewer]: How old are they now?

[Ellis Berns]: I have one daughter that's up at -- she's nineteen, will be twenty in December. My other daughter will be eighteen in September. One daughter is a sophomore at Seattle University, and my younger daughter is going to be a freshman at Northern Arizona. I've brought them back occasionally; I tend not to come back to Kent. This time, in 2010, I feel, as we started to talk about earlier, I feel somewhat vindicated through the University. It was quite refreshing, when they talked at the dedication in placing the site on the National Registry, that people actually owned up to the fact that there were certain people who tried to prevent the University -- who were basically trying to hide this. It was nice to hear some people finally realize that maybe James Rhodes really overreacted and was foolish, and Robert White was not the best person and maybe should not have been President and made some serious mistakes and so on. People are kind of owning up to that. I think time will tell.

I always believed that Kent was always the period at the end of the sentence for the 60s. I always believed that it was, at that point, when things became quite real. I know there was Jackson State and students killed. But Kent was like the exclamation mark. It was the point where things started to change after that. It was a very historic, profound event that I really believed changed the character of this country and what happened in the 60s. In 1970, things really began to move. Things changed. The 60s were pretty wild. We had good times certainly. But I really feel like that was the period at the end of the sentence for what happened in the 60s.

Anyway, glad to answer any questions to the best of my recollection. I'm in the process, I'd love to read some of my old transcripts. After this occurred, a couple of weeks or month or so -- again, I'm not sure of the exact timing -- I remember being interviewed by the FBI. So I would love to find copies of those transcripts, because it was so fresh in my mind, and I remember then taking copious notes. The irony is I remember signing them, because my parents said, "It's the FBI, you have to sign them." I look at it now and I go, That's stupid! Why would I do something like that? I'd never do that. But it was all handwritten notes by the FBI. They came to my house in Akron. My parents sat through it. It was just like the old Efrem Zimbalist movie -- there was this program called The F.B.I. It was just like what you'd pick. It was the guys in the crew cuts and the suits, and they came in a Ford with blackwalls. It was like, okay, I got this, that really is true.

So I would love to find those transcripts to help, you know, I'm sure I could, not embellish it, but at least it would help clarify some of the things that are now becoming a little more -- there are certain things that are very vivid, and other things that you just can't remember all the timing and things. I would be interested in reading that. And then at some point I would love to see some of the transcripts from some of the trials. Because I got flown back, I came back a couple of times for some of the trials.

[Interviewer]: Did you testify?

[Ellis Berns]: Yeah, and I testified. Because it was all about Sandra and I was the last person with her; and some people painted her as a protester and I was just adamant that this woman was not a protester. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was a wonderful person, and a very sweet person. So there are some things that I would love to be able to do, and maybe through the University I'll be able to find some of these things. Because I understand there are archives of some of this material.

[Interviewer]: We can go take a look, if you like.

[Ellis Berns]: I would love to. The other thing that was interesting is, I remember at one point -- I had mentioned my green fatigue jacket -- I remember when I came to testify, they had actually pictures of me, I believe, when I threw the [jacket], and they actually had the jacket.

[Interviewer]: They still had the --

[Ellis Berns]: And I was stunned. I was stunned. I never thought I would ever see it, I never wanted to see it, I wasn't looking to see it. If I recall correctly, they actually pulled the jacket out. They used it as evidence. But I would love to see if there was any -- unless you have any other questions? I hope that --

[Interviewer]: No. Ellis, this is a really wonderful interview. Sanda Scheuer is, like the other three, sort of iconic now, and it's nice to hear somebody talk about her in -- and that's important, being an icon. That's important. It's nice to hear her talked about in human terms.

[Ellis Berns]: Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you very, very much.

 

 

 

×